текст478. At 2:10pm on 23 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
generalissimofranco

Re #472

As You did me the courtesy of a long and very interesting response to my #469 I have taken the same approach (apologies).

Yes, I had as always, read Your posts & noted Your interest/support of NATO was similar to many inc. my own.

In my #469 I wrote of those EUropean Nations & Peoples who favoured the formation of an EDF. I indirectly suggested that views such as those of the mad-Greek indicated an EDF would find itself at loggerheads with Turkey. I stand by that.

Elsewhere, You choose to use the term "..orthodox.." and it is a bit unclear to me as to what You mean by this: As a 'Faith' it would seem to be a wholly inappropriate (i.e. out-dated & inaccurate) labelling of a mass of people in the region You primarily make Your remarks about. On any other basis the term 'orthodox' suggests You take Your view as common to the great majority (inc. Nik); I would say that is as much of a generalisation as if I were (which I never do) to claim the UK Citizens all want to be out of the EU.

Like the UK/England, Bulgaria has a long history and of course every Citizen is affected to some extent by the annals of experience passed from one generation to the next: Here again, I do puzzle over Your presenting of the 'eastern' continent as being so different from all the rest - - if anything such a view just highlights for me the ridiculous EU 'one-size-fits-all' mentality & absurdity of 'every closer union'. On the contrary, I do not think any of us are so very different; what Citizens of 'West' (You label it 'EU' though I don't know why?) & 'East' aspire to is the Rights & Responsibilities arrived at by Democratically approved Human Rights and with that an opportunity to live in relative harmony. It would seem to me the serial enmity, paranoid suspicion & hatreds expressed toward Turkey belong in a past You & others should not be handing down to Your children/grandchildren if those aspirations I mention above are to be achieved.
If the formation of the European Economic Community had a primary goal in the 'west' it was to break down those old, near traditional enmities - - IMO it succeeed to some extent - - IMO it is the post-Maastricht inception of the 'political construct' called the EU that has set-back that notable achievement by its wilful neglect/disrespect of the People.

Of course, throughout Europe & the British Isles there are unresolved issues: For Greece, e.g. Cyprus, but it is certainly no way to approach their resolution to have a mad-Greek constantly alleging the USA, UK, Germany etc. are all encouraging Turkey in opposition to Greece's interests because of an imagined catalogue of wrongs towards his Nation.

Personally, I would welcome the entry of Turkey into the EU as it would undoubtedly have enormous undermining impact on the axis-of-ill-intent based at Paris-Brussels-Berlin. Turkey's admittance is of course a long way off - - this too, I enjoy from a political perspective - - for it serves to highlight the utter duplicity & calculated menace of that 'axis' who between them spout fulsomely about the benefits of 'ever closer union' etc. and in the next breath put every imaginable & unimagined obstacle in the way of the entry of a very large neighbouring Nation! IMO Paris-Berlin want hegemony in continental EUrope, are close to achieving it, and the last thing they want or need is to have large & powerfully attractive 'independent' National voices at the 'west', i.e. UK/England and 'east', i.e. Turkey, offering alternatives to their 'one-size-fits-all' version of a unified Europe. In or out the EU it is my contention UK/England & Turkey are serious rivals to the centralising core instincts of the EU-Brussels entity: It can barely cope with the ramifications of UK/England's 'optional' stance to Brussels' self-serving policies so how much more pressured & weakened would its centre become with a lively alternative Economic-Political scenario on its 'eastern' border, i.e. Turkey as a member of the EU?

Which brings me to Your early claim, "..many conclusions of our colleague Nik posted here are more or less extremist..": There is NO 'more-or-less', his views are at the worst end of 'extreme' & border as I obviously have stated on madness. You continue with, "..no matter that they are based on well established historic facts..": When You try to repeat/support the unsubstantiated, factually inaccurate & often wholly erroneous mad-Greek's assertions about the history/misfortunes etc. of Greece/Balkans You undermine almost everything else that You comment on.

I regret, but in all honesty must state, I have no more sympathy with You than Nik if behind everything of Your views lay similar motivations of spuriously unfounded 'geo-political' conspiracy theories.

Final issue:
Contrary to Your thoughts, the 'dismantling' of the UK cannot in my view occur quickly enough! The sooner England & the English are after centuries freed of the encumbrance (and vice versa) of Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland the better.
IMO the United Kingdom was an exceptionally useful & effective political-cultural-military entity in its time. However, those days are long gone: Frankly, in this modern age of Hi-Tec/Spec. in everything the Scots, Welsh & Irish don't want or need such close ties with the English and the English as the ONLY National group WITHOUT its own elected representative Parliament most assuredly would be far better off Paying their Taxes for England's benefit alone. Thus, I would also support not paying any English Taxes to Brussels (i.e withdrawal).

IMO the Economic-Fiscal relief of not having to contribute to the 3 'union' nations and/or to Brussels other than by normal mercantile methods would in itself be an enormous uplift for England.

Thus, Referenda for all 4 Union Nations on UK & on EU Membership would be my political wish-list fulfilled: Though I make no claim for results suiting my personal beliefs on either issue -- it is the fact that NOBODY knows the British Citizens' views on their political-economic-social-judicial future is my greatest annoyance. Clearly the 'political' elite of the UK/England are very unlikely to put those 2 key issues to the Public in Secret Ballot anytime soon as it would appear they fear my 'withdrawal' ambition is also that of a majority of Britons/English.

So, the wholly Un-Democratic EU process continues bringing with it (in contrast to expressed aims) 'ever closer disillusionment' and the likelihood of a frustrated & bitterly divided populace - - within the UK/England & on the Continent - - from which resistance movements may emerge that do not favour my 'political' resolution and take more direct/assertive action against the illegitimate EU-Brussels entity or representations of it across borders.

текст499. At 10:32am on 26 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:

Bora, you claimed to be Turkish of non-muslim origins. You talk to us here pretending to be a Turk, so why don't you come out and tell us your real origins? I do so why don't you? I already had unmasked Mr. PacTurk whom I pressed to tell me he was not a Turk but a foreigner that lived there for long, so do the same.

Anyway you have avoided replying every single point and thus automatically have accepted what I said above.

You have again tried to open side issues so again you will be answered in these:

484. At 4:57pm on 23 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:

"""And? So are Nazis in 1939-1945, but you don't see people demonizing germany around now do you? You're still stuck on events that happened a century ago, which I don't deny, on any blog subject related or unrelated to greece."""

Failed example. Germany has recognised and apologised for its past deeds. Turkey and ALL Turks kemalists and muslims, educated and illiterate are into this, not only does not recognise the 3 parallel genocides totalling 4 million slaughtered people, but actually it celebrates them and do not lose the chance to threaten to repeat them on any occasion. The invasion, slaughters and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus is indicating of Turkish aggressiveness as well as deep-rooted cultural aspects of Turks.

Then again you are wrong as to my refering to it. Blogs unrelated to this rarely open such a discussion. When we do discuss the geopolitics of the Eastern Mediterranean area, it is bound to include a reference to the genocides which is the flag event of the last 200 years in the region.

"""But if this affects your economy and social life then I suggest you look for answers somewhere else."""

I guess according to you the fact that Turkey threatens with war Greece if it applies its sovereignty is the best selling point to attract serious foreign investment in Greece isn't it?

Anyone again you lost the 1000s of text I have written on how US-Russian games enter into this, again you remained in your poor Turkey's struck image, that is all you care to protect. You really are clueless of what games we are talking here. Try to make an effort to get the bigger piucture and forget for once your little beloved country.

""""Worst news is that the plan calls for the co-existing of both. What happens now is merely the rise of the islamists but in fact what both of them want is a co-existence."

You'd rather prefer they kill each other? What's wrong about a peaceful co-existance? Of course the general expectation, contrary to yours I guess, is that they'll lose their effect and eventually disappear."""

I have absolutely no care of what is going on inside Turkey. I just make the observation that Turks were always muslims and Kemalists have played on that having carried on the 3 genocides in the name of islam. To the minority of 2% of people who could read and write prior to 1920 they would sell the idea of an asi-if turkish nation but for the rest of the turkish or kurdish speaking muslim population of no particular ethnic consciousness they played the islamic card. Kemalists are no new to playing the islamic card, they have always done it. The co-existence of them is not just a reality but actually the main plan. All these inner fights are just to clear the scene in the personal level, NOT in the team level. Turkey cannot survive without getting back to islam. Kurds cannot be played by selling them turkishness but they can be played by selling them islam.

"""Turkey's current rising power doesn't come from military or kemalists or islamists, it's coming from the booming economy."""

Whatever. 15 and 10 years back Turkey was on the IMF now it is booming. If you had more insight you should understand what is going on with these bankrupcies and booms.

"""Turkey came 2nd in economic growth in the world right after China this year and is expected to be in top 5 economies in the world by 2050."""

Oh, in 40 years time? Whatever.

"""But you think USA is planning this, right?"""

US plans include several successive plans and on more than 1, Turkey won't exist till 2050. Are you satisfied?

"""Economy is booming in Turkey cos everybody is tired of endless tensions with neighboring countries. Why fight when you can do trade?"""

Good. Start solving your tensions with Greece by:

1) Accepting the international law
2) Stop threatening Greece with war
3) Retire troops from Cyprus, retire illigal colonists, return houses and lands back to the owners
3) Stop trying to push illegal immigration to Greece (and Bulgaria that is also EU)
4) Stop trying to incite (by money and sending false priests) muslim Pomaks and gipsies to call themselves Turks (both in EU Bulgaria too)
5) Recognise the 3 genocides of Minor Asia and apologise for the 1955 pongroms and the crimes in Imbros and Tenedos
... and other such thingies

See, pretending to have 0 problems with neighbours has to pass from the above. They are not just fair demands, they are the strict minimum for till today aggressive and barbaric Turkey to prove its future good intentions.

"""I was in a trade fair in autonomous Kurdistan in northern Iraq just last week and made many business deals. Nobody I met there (and they were all Kurds) had any hostility towards me or Turks, in fact it was surprising to see so many turkish goods in supermarkets, shops, streets, turkish tv programs on tv with sorani/barzani/dohuq subtitles, and people i met showed great hospitality."""

Your analysis is childish. Saudi people go to nighclubs in London, consume French champagne (despite pretending to be islamic) and have sex with British women. That does not make them European. A part of Kurds afterall were the Ottoman soldiers of the east that fought against Arabs and who perpetrated the Armenian genocide for which they have apologised (but not you). Play them the islamic card and they are yours.

"""Turkey's peaceful resolution request on Iran's nuclear power plant issue is all because Turkey fears it'll lose trade with Iran if an embargo is put in place, just like on Iraq two decades ago where Turkish economy hit bottom."""

Yes. Same with Greece having to deal with an aggressive Turkey. Now you get it.

"""Turkey suffered a lot on trade when Turkey was doing exactly what USA wanted all this time, seperating itself from Syria-Iran-Iraq. Turkey is not doing so anymore and making huge trade agreements with these countries. And suddenly in western media, Turkey's axis is shifting towards fundamentalism/islamism etc."""

You are blatantly wrong. Turkey continues to do exactly what US wants it to do. You are really ingorant of what is going on around you.

"""Despite your conspiracy theories of Turkey being USA's lapdog, Turkey has shown least support for invasion of Iraq, and Turks were claimed to be the most anti-american nation in the world, by USA! Still in US media there are so many comments on how Turkey faced itself towards the islamic middle east when all Turkey did/does is strenthening economy while the whole world has drowned in economic crisis."""

What you menion yourself is actually what you call a conspiracy theory. The reality is that US considers more than ever Turkey as its little doggie in the area and supports it on every single major issue. If Turkey wishes to play the great in the area, that is on the US command for which Turkey is the right tool for the bigger geopolitical games of the area. Turkey alone does not count. Without US support the country will arrive quite quickly on the brink of division. Stop having big ideas about your little country's capacity to play alone without the US support and face the reality.

"""Turkey's southern/southeastern neighbors are booming because Turkey is booming."""

You mean Syria and Lebanon? I do not think their economies depend so much on their relationship with Turkey though if Turkey does well it is better for them.

"""Greeks can take it to the streets and forums all they want, but that's not gonna change their failing economy."""

Greeks do not take it to the streets. Syndicalists or anarchists do. In 9 out of 10 strikes of the last 20 years less than 20% of people participated. There is a huge gap into saying that "Greeks took to the streets".

"""You have milked EU long enough and strangled yourself in EU politics."""

Greeks did not milk. Do not underestimate Eurpoeans. Greeks were milked in ways you are too naif to comprehend. I have already extensively analysed this, yet your hatred for Greeks does not permit you to understand a single word.

"""It's not because of some genocides or kemalists or british agents that your economy is this way, and will stay this way for quite some time."""

Who said it is because of that? Apparently you. You keep mixing the different issues having a hard time to follow the discussion.

487. At 5:09pm on 23 Jul 2010, Bora wrote:

464. At 12:56pm on 22 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
"Despite the time proximity of 1919 (year of the arrival of the Greek army in the city to 1923 year of the foundation of the Turkish state), what you say is the the equivalent of saying that Romans invaded and occupied Hungary but the Hungary did not exist back then nor did Hungarians."

"""My child, before rewriting history you should read about how Turkish war of independence started on 19th May 1919."""

What war of independence? The 2/3 of Turkey were occupied by Britain, France and Italy and Turks gathered the 100% of their army to attack the 1/10th that was occupied by Greeks sent there by British. There was absolutely no battle among Turks and Italians for example. Apparently Turks did not mind at all Italians having all south Turkey. The whole case of the "turkish war of independence" was to justifiy the establishment of the Kemalist regime and the completion of the genocides that had started 10 years earlier.

""""Smyrna could not had been occupied by Greeks, a population that had been there for at least 3 times longer in the span of history than the whatever muslims Turks you can count, let alone being the majority in this city Turks themselves called Gavour-Izmir (i.e. Smyrna, city of infidels)."

And Britain was occupied by pagan picts, celts, saxons etc way longer in the span of history than the whatever vikings or normans or christians arrived on the island, your point?"""

My point is that Turks commited the perfect genocide and that they are proud about it and ready to do it again on the first occasion.

"""And my young, Turks don't call Izmir "Gavour", that is hizbullah wannabe islamic fundamentalists that Turkey has greatly taken care of, and them calling Izmir "Gavour" comes from turks in aegean region having a good taste of alcohol and being least bit islamic according to them, nothing to do with greeks. Another myth debunked."""

The do not call it today. Back then they called it Gavour Izmir for the simple reason the city was just another Greek city within the falling Ottoman Empire.

текст из ВВЦ, с некими сомментарами из США (MarcusAureliusII + Powermeerkat), из Германии (Mathiasen), из Греции (Nik), из Франции (Opinion)...И тоже присоединяюсь.
Володя
Where does Turkey's future lie?
Gavin Hewitt | 14:39 UK time, Tuesday, 27 July 2010

In Ankara today David Cameron made an impassioned pitch for Turkey to become part of the European Union. "I'm here," the British Prime Minister said, "to make the case for Turkey's membership of the EU. And to fight for it".

The Prime Minister said he was "angry" that Turkey's progress towards EU membership had been frustrated. He promised to remain Turkey's strongest advocate for EU membership. It was, he said, "something I feel very passionately about".

This fulsome embrace needs to be seen against recent fears that Turkey is increasingly looking east. The Americans say Turkey is being pushed to look for "other alliances" because it feels snubbed by Europe. Washington partly blamed European coolness for the fact that Turkey voted against new sanctions on Iran.

Certainly there is a confidence, even a swagger to Turkey. Its economy is growing by 11% a year. With a powerful economy comes influence. Ankara has been busy building links with Syria and Iran. It wants to become a power in the Muslim world. Its biggest trading partner is now Russia, not the EU.

There are plenty of voices in Turkey who believe they can do without the EU. Faith in eventual membership is ebbing away.

What has brought this about?

The EU accession talks are going nowhere. They are stalled with no breakthrough in sight. In truth neither President Sarkozy of France nor Chancellor Merkel of Germany wants Turkey as a full EU member. They want Turkey to settle for a second-class "privileged partnership". The French are committed to holding a referendum on Turkey's accession.

The Turkish view is that the "old powers" don't want another big player in the club. They suspect that public opinion in much of Europe is lukewarm or even hostile about 75 million Muslims joining the EU. The Turkish Prime Minister, Tayyip Erdogan, said "the EU will only be a Christian club without Turkey". He also, at one point, denounced what he called Angela Merkel's "hatred against Turkey".

There are, however, real issues that affect the road to EU membership.

Cyprus is a major roadblock. Turkey does not recognise Cyprus or allow its ports to be used by Cypriot vessels. It didn't help that a veteran nationalist, Dervis Eroglu, was elected president in the Turkish-backed area of northern Cyprus.

The EU is a secular union and there are fears that the Turkish government is moving away from secularism.

Turkey will also be judged on its stance towards Iran and its nuclear programme. On Monday the EU agreed on tough new sanctions against Tehran. Turkey faces a choice of either supporting the EU or enabling Iran to bypass the new restrictions.

David Cameron said today that "it's Turkey that can help us stop Iran from getting the bomb". He did not flinch from laying out the case against the Iranian regime: "Iran is enriching uranium to 20 per cent with no industrial logic for what they are doing other than producing a bomb."

Iran is rapidly becoming the biggest test as to where Turkey's interests lie.

Then there are the fears that if Turkey joins the EU, Europe will lose its identity. The politicians will have to have that discussion with the people of Europe if Turkey is to join. The people may have to be consulted. David Cameron addressed those concerns directly today "I will argue that the values of real Islam are not incompatible with the values of Europe."

Turkey for its part is watching and deciding whether it can be a bridge between East and West. The Turkish President, Abdullah Gul, said recently that Europeans "are at a point where they need to decide whether the Union is a closed entity, whether the current borders of the EU will define it for eternity, or whether it should plan 50 years ahead and think of its grandchildren, the future".

текстI read from the BBC main article:

"""David Cameron has promised to "fight" for Turkey's membership of the European Union, saying he is "angry" at the slow pace of negotiations."""

Haha... yes "fight"... Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan style?

"""On his first visit as prime minister, he said the country could become a "great European power", helping build links with the Middle East."""

"great European power" aaaaaaahahaha... should I laugh with the "great", with the "European" or with the "power"?

"""In a speech at the Turkish parliament in Ankara, Mr Cameron said he wanted to "pave the road" for Turkey to join the EU, saying the country was "vital for our economy, vital for our security and vital for our diplomacy"."""

"vital"... for whom? For Portugal or for Sweden? A yes! For the UK. But the rest 440,000,000 Europeans do not care about that.

"""While praising Turkey's secular and democratic traditions, Mr Cameron stressed that Turkey must continue to push forward "aggressively" with economic and political reform to maintain momentum towards EU membership."""

"Aggressive" pffff...

----------------------------------

Question: what is that choice of words really? If Cameron-boy just visits people and tells them what they want to hear then Turks just wanna hear about being:

1) vital
2) fighting
3) aggressive
4) powerful
5) great
6) ... european

What kind of psychological complexes some have to need to hear Cameron tell them the above must be there, I am really wondering. Interesting issue. Even more when they passed most of the 20th century exterminating all European populations in their country as well in foreign countries they invaded, and now they want to become themselves europeans. What kind of complexe is that?

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52. At 9:01pm on 27 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
... and the question remains:

It just does not matter what the UK wished (and clearly they want Turkey inside to make them 2 in the EU). The question is on Turks. Why? EU has a long record of bad economic performances, reduced autonomy of action, ruining local interests and using peripheral countries as boxing sacks and milking cows. Turks must be blind not to see all that. So what drives Turks becoming so .... altruists... wishing to enter the EU? That is the question indeed!

Why do Turks want to join the European Union? Do they really feel they have something to do in Europe? Do they feel being Europeans? Or is it just that kind of complex of the "low-class wishing to enter the high-class salon just to satisfy personal complexes of inferiority"?

If nothing like that is true then what is the motive?

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53. At 9:20pm on 27 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
Gavin forgot to mention that both leaders condemned Israel for ´PRISON CAMP´Gaza, while discussing Iran. (rather dishonest and incomplete reporting)

TWO Nato members are expressing dissatisfaction with Israel -- and more will follow !

No doubt Cameron has also plans that Turkey accept the Pound Sterling as a Euro alternative and Sterling support.

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54. At 9:28pm on 27 Jul 2010, Nik wrote:
35. At 6:51pm on 27 Jul 2010, DLT wrote:

Priceless message (if you are any other EU nationality than Greek, then you are quite knowledgeable of the region).

Indeed you are right on every single point you made and I built on it:

Turkey:

1) cannot be used as a link with other sunni muslims because the rest are Arabs and simply the last thing they want is to have Turks telling them stories again. Syria has more negative than positive relations with Turkey and other Middle Eastern countries have simply no particular touch

2) cannot be used as a link to other turkic muslim communities in central Asia. The pantourkic idea was applied for 20 years now and is deemed a blatant failure apart the isolated case of Azerbaitzan in desperate need of political support from Turkey in its issues at Nagorno Karabah where it got crashed by the local militia army of this break-way Armenian region

3) cannot be used as a mediator to Iran as Iran is their good old shiite enemies they had been fighting for centuries for the control of Mesopotamia. Brief links cannot restore the vast civilisational let alone geopolitical chasm between the two countries

therefore:
4) cannot be sold as a country that has more to offer to the EU

and on top:
5) cannot be taken seriously when it openly starts neo-Ottoman agendas (ref. to Davut-oglu boy)

6) cannot be consided European: not only as a culture or mindset which is day and night different to the rest of the Europeans but also even the "mimickry" of the fascist military Kemalist regime has eaten all its breads and evidently does not have anything to sell nowadays...

I.e. too much talk or nothing.

Turkey has nothing particular to offer to Europe other than becoming no2 next to UK in being a blind follower of the US geopolitical plans in Eurasia.

"""Besides, important as Turkey may be as a regional power, it is not and will never be a superpower, such as Russia, China, India or Brasil are or will be."""

Correct. If Cameron spent half the words he said for Russia or Brazil it would be much more beneficial for the EU cause. Now, the definition of a "regional power" necessarily passes from the point of it being capable all by itself to yield some autonomous power and if it wishes to enforce pass its will. Turkey is not such. So far it has not moved a single cm without consulting first the US and Britain. Plain speaking, the term puppet-power is more fitting than the terms Cameron used.

US and UK wishes are understandable, but then why would the EU want to receive in the club a US-puppet power? What for?

And on the other side, the question remains. Why would Turks wish to enter the EU? Why do they need it so much?

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55. At 9:32pm on 27 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
#52 Nik

Greece is not in the same league as Turkish industry --- So go back to sleep and keep your powder dry !

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56. At 9:33pm on 27 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
JukkaRohila @#23

"...In case of Europe and Turkey, the main obstacle of Turkeys membership in the EU is its poor human rights situation..."

Personally, I thought the Europeans were pretty good when it came to human rights but then you did write ... "EU" is its poor human rights situation! That explains why it would be so difficult for Turkey to join - they wouldn't want to go downhill would they?. ;0)

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57. At 9:35pm on 27 Jul 2010, Unal wrote:

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58. At 9:38pm on 27 Jul 2010, Menedemus wrote:
Following on from #34.

Turkey, by joining the EU, could end up voting for Christmas!

Turkey eggs, its the way you crack 'em!

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59. At 9:50pm on 27 Jul 2010, ghostofsichuan wrote:
Powermerrcat:

As the Europeans were picking the bones of China during that period it would be fair to say that the Chinese viewed that treaty as signed under duress. Foreign warships on China's rivers and coast was the diplomacy of the day.Others followed and after all the British were fighting to sell opium to the Chinese and other high moral reasons. Their fellow Europens and the US decided that this was easy money and the Russians decided why should they be left out. The Chinese have not forgotten all this and it is still playing out. Now they are all lined up at China's door borrowing money....history can be ironic.

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60. At 9:51pm on 27 Jul 2010, quietoaktree wrote:
#47 distant traveller

--Get your history right -- or do some traveling !

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61. At 9:53pm on 27 Jul 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:
Cameron has taken lessons from 'Yes Minister':

Britain must be at the heart of the EU... in order to destroy it.

Well done, Dave!!!

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62. At 10:23pm on 27 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
MadMax

"Cameron has taken lessons from 'Yes Minister':"

No, The Macaroon has taken lessons from...The Cookie Monster!

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63. At 10:40pm on 27 Jul 2010, nick wrote:
Why is this joke of a UK prime minister insisting Turkey join the EU.
It's only because the united states want it, and all cameron is doing is pampering to the united states again. When will the UK as a nation make it's own international agenda. Are we in Europe or not. David Cameron has no right to make such a statement about Turkey joining the EU, when Turkey as a nation has not met the most basic criteria of joing Europe.

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64. At 11:19pm on 27 Jul 2010, mvr512 wrote:
41.Leo_Naphta wrote:# 39, A pity that you would exclude an area completely on the idea of the geographical location as such

Really? Then why call it European Union, if you're not gonna limit it to Europe? What's next? New Zealand? Japan?

Istanbul (or maybe you'd prefer Constantinople), by the way, is most decidedly in Europe

Half of it isn't. And most of the country isn't either. Plus: Turkey is not Istanbul.

I don't think there is any reason to let Turkey join the Union...

I agree with that part
(and left the rest of the sentence out

Europe is an ill-defined concept both geographically as culturally as politically.

Not in my book it isn't. Urals, Caucasus, Bosporus, Mediterranean.

Leaves Turkey out in my book. Oh, and the Turkish army ought to launch a coup against the AKP which is undermining secularity.

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65. At 11:41pm on 27 Jul 2010, Unal wrote:
Pre 1974 Turks in Cyprus had to go through check points before they could cross from one town to the next. People would go missing. Questions was asked by turkey no answers were given. Then one day the Greeks felt so confident that they tried to wipe out all the Turks from Cyprus. Turkey stood up to this and did something while all the other countries sat back and whatched. Pre 1974 over 1200 Turks was massacred. Turkey put an end to all that. I hope they do the same for the palestians. Turkey will bow to no nation it's foundations is older than America & Australia put together. That's fact don't like look it up. And as for the Kurds who are armed by the isrealis and the Greeks who also provide the propaganda, keep on trying. Now the issue with Europe. Turkey is not your toy they will how ever provide you with bread and butter for the future we all now that. The European economy is week and will get weaker in fifty years time. Asia America will be way ahead. So now you tell me who needs who. Turkey has 70 percent of the population all students ready for the future. While Europe has 50 percent of the population over fifty years old. Europe will be the beggars in years to come. That's why cameron is doing it now.

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66. At 00:06am on 28 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Nick at Nite;

"It's only because the united states want it, and all cameron is doing is pampering to the united states again."

I really do wish the American government would stay out of what are clearly European affairs. They will of course do whatever they want and when it blows up in their faces as their lunacy inevitably does, our meddling will only give them an excuse to blame us for their own folly. Then they will want to somehow be compensated for it. Please Mister President, when it comes to other nations internal affairs that don't affect us, I beg of you to just shut up. In other words...zip it.

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67. At 00:20am on 28 Jul 2010, opinion wrote:
He he
There is no surprise in Cameron's discourse.
First he gets some economical advantages from Turkey for "being so much on their side".
Second he gets an upper position in negotiations with Germany and France by being able to renounce little by little to his support for Turkey.

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68. At 01:25am on 28 Jul 2010, orkhun wrote:
I usualy don't comment on news posts but this time I had to as it's BBC;
You should not take any comments about Kurds or Cyprus serious on news about Turkey, unless those comments come from someone who lived in Turkey or Cyprus and has a wide knowledge on history and geography. I am a journalist as well and I say, to comment on some other country you have to have a wide knowledge of it's history and culture otherwise it becomes a pro or anti speech without a base, I can't lecture anyone on these topics as this would take days. For the EU topic Turkey needs EU for a stable market, free travel for business and regional security nothing else, for some comments on Super Powers, people should study more before commenting, to be a power you need more than economical growth and among those countries only China is becoming a Super Power and India a Major Power, and if you'd like to know Turkey study, all those anti-turkey bullshit is only for illeterate and narrow minded, Finally if you didn't live in Turkey or studied it at University stop commenting except your self opinion on the news mentioned. For me Turkey may or may not join the EU it's not a major concern, Turkey should modernise itself on it's own way not others. Also Turkey doesn't need to be a European country to join the union EU is a name it doesn't mean countries on European countinent not anymore. Thank you for reading.

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69. At 01:44am on 28 Jul 2010, JBD68 wrote:
I think it would be detrimental for Turkey to join the EU. i don't think it is a true union in the sense that the US is and never will be. Look at the members: non of them are doing too well. They can not decide on anything, Majority of Brits I speak with here don't want anything to do with the EU. You will find that majority of the Turks do not want to join either.

As a Turk I think, our interests are best served by continuing to open up to more trade with our neighbours in the short to medium term, in the longer term all of Middle east, Russia, Latin America. Russia is already a good trading partner. Get out of NATO as well, it is only annoying our neighbours and potential trading partners.There is no military threat to Turkey.

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70. At 01:52am on 28 Jul 2010, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
So what will happen if The Macaroon vists Greece anytime soon? Maybe he should send his junior Cleggy. As a duo each can speak out of a different side of the British government's mouth. Isn't that a politician's instinct anyway?

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71. At 04:11am on 28 Jul 2010, Liliput wrote:
Future? The Turks will be most welcome to join EU if they can make Schweinsbraten their staple diet and Remy Martin (I recommend Louis XIII) their national drink. Plus all sorts of imported German sausage and french wine (sorry, no 'fish & chips', boiled veg, or tea allowed).

If they can do this it will be a lot easier for Cameron to 'fight' and 'make a case' for them!

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72. At 04:52am on 28 Jul 2010, burtine wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

73. At 07:30am on 28 Jul 2010, Unal wrote:
@lilliput

Your point

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74. At 08:09am on 28 Jul 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:
lacerniagigante

Re #8, #10 & the other UK has got 'no say' in EU detractors

UK is the 2nd/3rd largest contributor (depending on the type of measurement & basically as France's economy lives off the other EU26 it doesn't count, so, in reality UK is 2nd to Germany).

That eminent annual Fiscal-Economic contribution plus 3rd largest population, 2nd/3rd largest 'internal market', key Commission posts, Foreign Rep Ashton, and UK/England's geo-political links via Commonwealth make it a Nation with considerable clout within the EU.

Also, in past times it was UK championed the cause of Sweden, Finland etc. entering the EU, so it has shown that commitment.
Just on a matter of principle like any EU member it is entitled to promote the 'entry' of any prospective Nation.

The reality is Turkey's enormous struggles with its membership application/negotiations just 100% expose the duplicity and reckless disregard for the basics on which France-Germany publicly proclaim the virtues of the EU: Namely, 'ever closer union' - - it is a fallacy - - the axis-of-ill-intent are only interested in supporting measures to increasse their hegemony. Clearly were Turkey to become a full member the geo-political/demographic/cultural/economic structure of the EU would be radically altered. The core, centralising controllers in Paris-Berlin would find they are under intense pressure from 'west' (UK/England) and 'east' (Turkey) and the self-serving, self-appointed founding-inspirators' influence (Paris-Berlin) would be severely challenged and doubtless much reduced.

As an 'anti-EU' I enjoy this debacle whatever its outcome: The long drawn-out discussions of Turkish entry serve to show Paris-Berlin are liars about their 'ever closer union' and demonstrate their venal interests govern the Brussels' framework; if Turkey were to gain membership the undermining of Paris-Berlin might almost make UK/England membership become a more viable proposition because Paris-Berlin would not be able to control the political 'input' & decision-making process in the manner they have for the last 20 post-Maastricht years.

Incidentally, all those 'pro-EU' (opposed to Turkey) and indeed anyone familiar with Maastricht's details & the Single Union must know Turkey's application is entirely within the framework of acceptability.
Yes, Turkey, like others presently applying has much to do (and given its uniqueness as a Muslim Nation the difficulties are greater - - however, Paris-Berlin's opposition has allowed the bigots to emerge in full voice - - for an EU proclaiming 'unity' & 'neighbourliness' it is very unedifying). Turkey's attitudes to Human Rights being only 1 of several areas where harmonistaion still has a long way to go: Nevertheless, to complete its preparations, but the additional hurdle placed in Turkey's way plus the outright opposition of Paris-Berlin (& others, e.g. Athens) is contrary to the letter & spirit of the 1992 EU pacts.

Consequently, I hope Turkey gains admittance, but confess the day the negotiations finally collapse will not from a UK/England viewpoint be all that bad. It may well give the PM after Cameron (it'll take 10 years for Turkey to get the hostile message from Paris-Berlin) all the excuse needed to go to the British Public with a Referenda on membership.

Of course the latter scenario will be a tragedy for Europe: A disillusioned & probably ultra-Islamic giant nation on its south-east doorstep, the never-ending Cyprus divide, the likelihood of Turkey supporting promotion of radical Islam inside the EU, the 'loist' immense & developing internal market that Turkey offers, and instead a huge & very competitive non-EU Economy on its doorstep...

The EU may never recover from such a mistake.

The probability a UK/England Government masy also finally conclude that the stagnant-stifling Paris-Brussels-Berlin cabal really will only countenance their avaricious political-economic interests at whatever cost to the rest of the EU: Inspiration for UK & perhaps others to get out from under Brussels...

No, Turkey outside the EU does not bode well at all for the political monstrosity in its present format.

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75. At 08:15am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Re #59

"British were fighting to sell opium to the Chinese and other high moral reasons. Their fellow Europens and the US decided that this was easy money and the Russians decided why should they be left out. The Chinese have not forgotten all this and it is still playing out. Now they are all lined up at China's door borrowing money....history can be ironic."

Yes, it can, can't it?

All what's needed now is a "Manchurian Candidate".

BTW. I was talking to a Chinese (US-educated) aeronautical engineer travelling with his family through Peru last autumn.

I've mentioned Ural Mountains.

He seemed puzzled and looked at his 20sh son who explained:

'ULAR mountains'.

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76. At 08:17am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
"Oh, and the Turkish army ought to launch a coup against the AKP which is undermining secularity."

At least give them some credit for fighting Commie PKK.

[you have to start somewhere]

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77. At 08:27am on 28 Jul 2010, powermeerkat wrote:
Liliput wrote: "Plus all sorts of imported German sausage and french wine (sorry, no 'fish & chips', boiled veg, or tea allowed)."

"German sausage and French wine"?

Liliput, your post alone has given me an indigestion.

[almost like Helmut Kohl's notorious cook book]

It's either Adana kebab washed down with rake, or Tournedot a la Rossini
[you know ,the great French composer ] washed down with a decent Pouillac.

[Of course there's always surf&turf (sauted scallops+mahi-mahi steak) washed down with a Californian Petite Sirrah.]

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текст82. Menedemus wrote (Danmark):
Just read this in The Economist (Bagehot's notebook) and it made me smile: "... in Germany, for example, it is a big deal that if Turkey did achieve membership in 2025, say, it is projected to have a larger population than any other EU country. That would give Turkey, overnight, the largest delegation of members of the European Parliament. That profoundly shocks Germans, who take the EP rather seriously. In Britain, many people could not care less if a delegation of chimpanzees were elected to the Strasbourg assembly."

Just think though, the Human Rights Law would quickly become the Chimpanzee Rights Law and Chimpanzees could impose their rules and behaviurs on the rest of us very quickly. I think the British might well object to that ... they pretty much object to everything to do with EU imposed rules and rights anyway.

83. Generalissimo_franco wrote:
Gavin,
I think that the good intended stance the British coalition government has addopted with regards of the present Turkish leadership lacks some essential points. One cannot declare openly that all the cultural/religious/political/social etc. differences between us, European (mainly Christian) nations cannot be a reason that would prevent Turkey from being invited to join the EU. Second, if we add to the all those obvious differences (which would suggest a total incompatibility between the code of secular values the Europeans share and the cultural traditions still in force in Turkey), the fact that Turkey, so far, did not recognized openly the genocide its troops perpetrated of several millions of Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, Bulgarians etc., within a relatively short historic period of time, say, from 1913 up to 1974, we must agree that the present Turkish leadership naively believes that its historical past, and his present are enough “clean” for applying for a full membership to the EU.
Even, if we admit, that by some miracle, Turkey will be allowed to join the Brussels institutions as a full member state, that circumstance does not necessarily mean that Turkey will counterbalance (as expected by Mr.Cameron) the present French/German political/economical preponderance in the “cooking” of the general EU policy. Turkey might play its own card, much to the dissatisfaction of Mr.Cameron and its government. I would name that Turkish eventual stance a “Turkish Gambit”, that may surprise in a quite unpleasant way all member states…
And last, but not least, old Europe is not at all a correctional house for that country which is much closer to Asia both geographically and politically. Sorry Mr. Cameron!
Regards from Sofia